Old Muley
May 2, 09:36 AM
After seeing at least two posters refer to this as a "virus", I'm sitting here doing a face palm. One more "it's a virus" comment and I'm moving up to the double face palm...
citizenzen
Apr 23, 11:07 PM
Perhaps you should define atheism for me.
I was under the impression it was the belief no god(s) existed. Which would then lead to someone with atheistic beliefs affirming the veracity of the statement "there are no god(s)."
As I said a few posts back, I have rarely (never) encountered somebody who makes that claim.
At that other forum (that I left because the level of discussion was so poor) there were a number of posts where people linked to examples of what they called "fundamentalist atheists".
Yet, in every case, those atheists went out of their way to state that they don't know ultimately whether a God or Gods exist, only that there is no proof of their existence. If you can find an atheist who claims "There is no such thing as God," I'll say you found an idiot who likes to claim knowledge they can't possess.
So my definition of an atheist would not be someone who claims to have disproved God, but one who is still waiting for you to prove yours.
Edit: and then I saw Apple OC's post. Okay. At least one atheist fundamentalist exists.
I was under the impression it was the belief no god(s) existed. Which would then lead to someone with atheistic beliefs affirming the veracity of the statement "there are no god(s)."
As I said a few posts back, I have rarely (never) encountered somebody who makes that claim.
At that other forum (that I left because the level of discussion was so poor) there were a number of posts where people linked to examples of what they called "fundamentalist atheists".
Yet, in every case, those atheists went out of their way to state that they don't know ultimately whether a God or Gods exist, only that there is no proof of their existence. If you can find an atheist who claims "There is no such thing as God," I'll say you found an idiot who likes to claim knowledge they can't possess.
So my definition of an atheist would not be someone who claims to have disproved God, but one who is still waiting for you to prove yours.
Edit: and then I saw Apple OC's post. Okay. At least one atheist fundamentalist exists.
bokdol
May 2, 01:57 PM
i just cleaned out of the the computers at work. and the person had the installer window still open. they pressed ok but because they had 10 other windows open they really did not realize they authorized it to install.
it is not that they did not authorize it's that their computer had soo much stuff on they did not realize they authorized it.
it is not that they did not authorize it's that their computer had soo much stuff on they did not realize they authorized it.
bpaluzzi
Apr 28, 08:49 AM
I meant "installed base" more than shipments.
Ahh. Any proof, or just making up stuff?
Ahh. Any proof, or just making up stuff?
ender land
Apr 23, 10:31 PM
Frankly, it doesn't take much faith to claim that nothing and no-one stands above nature (i.e. being supernatural).
...
Do you realize the sheer magnitude of this statement?
If even 0.0000001% of an incredibly lowball estimate as to the number of current Christians in the world (not to mention past Christians or other theistic religions) have legitimately experienced a supernatural event - pick one, doesn't matter which or how large or small it is - this is an incorrect statement.
Even if 99.9999% of a billion people claiming supernatural events such as religion are lying, that is still a thousand experiences which invalidate your premise.
Everything we can see is derived from nature.
Spoken like a true empiricist.
Where would God come from then?
I have never understood why this is used as an argument against a god(s). Clearly, something exists now (as an aside, if you disagree with this statement there is absolutely no grounds to say religion is not true either, so I'm going to assume you do agree something does in fact exist, namely the universe). No matter how you believe, either atheism, creationism, flying spagetti monsterism, anything, at some point, there will be the problem that something always existed. Or existed "before." Whether it's God or a singularity point or whatever, all rational beliefs agree upon this point.
Asking how God existed prior to the known universe is meaningless in terms of invalidating any religion.
If there are spiritual entities which stand above us humans, they do certainly not stand above these laws. It doesn't make sense, and was never even supposed to make sense to the human mind in the first place (ask any priest about the latter, he will confirm it).
Simple example: I make some robots. I put them into a world (let's say I put them in a room with no visible or perceptible interior doors/windows/etc). They interact and are reasonably self aware. Their entire world is this room. Gravity is "obvious" to them. Suddenly, I rotate the entire room 90 degrees. They would have a situation where the statement "no spiritual entity.. stand[s] above these laws."
Clearly this does not necessarily prove god(s). But it does mean your belief as stated above is illogical (unless starting from the assumed premise that no god(s) exist, in which case your faith rests upon this belief).
...
Do you realize the sheer magnitude of this statement?
If even 0.0000001% of an incredibly lowball estimate as to the number of current Christians in the world (not to mention past Christians or other theistic religions) have legitimately experienced a supernatural event - pick one, doesn't matter which or how large or small it is - this is an incorrect statement.
Even if 99.9999% of a billion people claiming supernatural events such as religion are lying, that is still a thousand experiences which invalidate your premise.
Everything we can see is derived from nature.
Spoken like a true empiricist.
Where would God come from then?
I have never understood why this is used as an argument against a god(s). Clearly, something exists now (as an aside, if you disagree with this statement there is absolutely no grounds to say religion is not true either, so I'm going to assume you do agree something does in fact exist, namely the universe). No matter how you believe, either atheism, creationism, flying spagetti monsterism, anything, at some point, there will be the problem that something always existed. Or existed "before." Whether it's God or a singularity point or whatever, all rational beliefs agree upon this point.
Asking how God existed prior to the known universe is meaningless in terms of invalidating any religion.
If there are spiritual entities which stand above us humans, they do certainly not stand above these laws. It doesn't make sense, and was never even supposed to make sense to the human mind in the first place (ask any priest about the latter, he will confirm it).
Simple example: I make some robots. I put them into a world (let's say I put them in a room with no visible or perceptible interior doors/windows/etc). They interact and are reasonably self aware. Their entire world is this room. Gravity is "obvious" to them. Suddenly, I rotate the entire room 90 degrees. They would have a situation where the statement "no spiritual entity.. stand[s] above these laws."
Clearly this does not necessarily prove god(s). But it does mean your belief as stated above is illogical (unless starting from the assumed premise that no god(s) exist, in which case your faith rests upon this belief).
tangodiva
Aug 26, 04:11 AM
Had drop call issues with my iPhone 3G ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. Not kidding. Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Louisiana, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Indiana, New York, New Jersey . . . you get the picture.
Now with my iPhone 4, it is WORSE. I get dropped 3 or 4 times during a 15 minute conversation.
Talked my friend into an iPhone (it is GREAT for everything except being a phone) and she, in 3 days, has had to return 2 phones that were defective. She, a tech industry executive, asked AT&T and Apple what their failure rate was, and they replied, "We can't tell you that." Go figure. Also learned that there is one side of the band on the iPhone 4 for telephone and the other side for data. Having your hands directly on either side will diminish the reception. Using a headset does help (keeping hands off phone)
My iPad hasn't seemed to have so many problems connecting on the go, but it does run a little slower sometimes. Have to say it rules, except the flash thing (best surfing anywhere?????), but another thread:D
Now with my iPhone 4, it is WORSE. I get dropped 3 or 4 times during a 15 minute conversation.
Talked my friend into an iPhone (it is GREAT for everything except being a phone) and she, in 3 days, has had to return 2 phones that were defective. She, a tech industry executive, asked AT&T and Apple what their failure rate was, and they replied, "We can't tell you that." Go figure. Also learned that there is one side of the band on the iPhone 4 for telephone and the other side for data. Having your hands directly on either side will diminish the reception. Using a headset does help (keeping hands off phone)
My iPad hasn't seemed to have so many problems connecting on the go, but it does run a little slower sometimes. Have to say it rules, except the flash thing (best surfing anywhere?????), but another thread:D
Sodner
Mar 18, 08:44 AM
Get em AT&T. Bust them all. Hold them to the contracts they signed. Fine them, cancel them, jail them. Do what's in your right per the contract to punish all the theives.
tayldn
Oct 14, 05:38 AM
Completely agree.
Me too. (Gartner know nothing- pure guesses). Having lots of devices is going to be less and less important for Nokia and Android. Apple have shown that form factor is not that important (not as important as it was when everything on the inside was the same)- a good big screen with a thin unit is all most need now that the magic is on the inside. Consumers are not going to want to differentiate with form factor (outside) so much as the cool stuff inside- there's real personalisation going on...inside.
I really used to dislike Apple (broken ipod!). But they know how to treat developers like me. The iPhone is going to take a much bigger share of the market over the next 24 months in the UK where it's coming off exclusivity with o2. The product is better and will stay better for some time. And cheaper untis are going to hit the market very soon making this accessible to everyone. Apple'll let this thing keep growing- in the future, they'll be able to make a loss on the handset...
Reckon they've got 24 months over the other manufacturers. o2 have about 20% of the market. Apple could triple their market share quite quickly simply by going with 2 more operators. Bit rudimentary I know- but why not?
Me too. (Gartner know nothing- pure guesses). Having lots of devices is going to be less and less important for Nokia and Android. Apple have shown that form factor is not that important (not as important as it was when everything on the inside was the same)- a good big screen with a thin unit is all most need now that the magic is on the inside. Consumers are not going to want to differentiate with form factor (outside) so much as the cool stuff inside- there's real personalisation going on...inside.
I really used to dislike Apple (broken ipod!). But they know how to treat developers like me. The iPhone is going to take a much bigger share of the market over the next 24 months in the UK where it's coming off exclusivity with o2. The product is better and will stay better for some time. And cheaper untis are going to hit the market very soon making this accessible to everyone. Apple'll let this thing keep growing- in the future, they'll be able to make a loss on the handset...
Reckon they've got 24 months over the other manufacturers. o2 have about 20% of the market. Apple could triple their market share quite quickly simply by going with 2 more operators. Bit rudimentary I know- but why not?
GGJstudios
Apr 9, 03:14 PM
Adjust their thinking? With all due respect, I hate this type of (fill in the blank).
So then, if someone can use their Windows laptop on their lap -- while wearing shorts -- without a problem... then they try using a Mac laptop the same way but they burn their legs (or worse)... you would suggest that they just need to adjust their thinking?
Seriously??
Since you can't change the heat characteristics of Mac portables, or the heat conductivity of aluminum enclosures.... yes! It's simple common sense. If it's too hot on bare legs, then common sense says, "don't put it on bare legs!" It's so simple, even a cave man could figure it out.
So then, if someone can use their Windows laptop on their lap -- while wearing shorts -- without a problem... then they try using a Mac laptop the same way but they burn their legs (or worse)... you would suggest that they just need to adjust their thinking?
Seriously??
Since you can't change the heat characteristics of Mac portables, or the heat conductivity of aluminum enclosures.... yes! It's simple common sense. If it's too hot on bare legs, then common sense says, "don't put it on bare legs!" It's so simple, even a cave man could figure it out.
Sydde
Mar 11, 11:50 PM
Radiation leaks? In Japan? I hope they have someone keeping an eye out for really, really large reptiles
Eidorian
Jul 13, 08:07 AM
Because Conroes are faster, better value for money and competitive with what non-Apple desktops will offer. Um, it's basically the same chip. Conroe just doesn't meet the thermal requirements to be called "Merom".
I don't get the bubble that many Apple fans seem to live in, where Apple can short-change you with crippled hardware at premium prices (which they have done) and get away with it.Apple controls the supply and we live with it. Sure we'd like to be able to pick CPU options (ala PC manufacturers) but Apple hasn't give that to us yet.
Would you be happy, as a consumer, if Apple decided to give you a Merom based iMac rather than a Conroe iMac just because they couldn't be bothered designing a new MoBo for the new chip? I wouldn't, which is why I intend to buy a new iMac only if they're Conroe based.I would be happy with a Merom iMac. In fact I expect Merom to be in the iMac. They share the same socket. It's an easy update path for Apple.
Even the top-end Merom (2.33Ghz) will not be able to keep up with the standard Conroe (2.4Ghz) and costs nearly twice as much. Which would mean the only consumer Apple desktop would not be able to keep up with even bog standard Conroe PC's from DELL (or whoever) and still cost much more. It simply makes no sense for Apple or consumers.
For example, a 2.4Ghz Conroe will cost Apple $316 however a 2.33Ghz Merom will cost Apple over $600 or a 2.16Ghz Merom $423. Now why would Apple pay over $100 more for a 2.16Ghz Merom compared to a 2.4Ghz Conroe? Merom is slower and more expensive, it makes neither logical or financial sense for Apple to use them in the iMac if they have the option of Conroe with a new MoBo. End of.We'd all like Apple to be more like Dell in terms of price, model, and chip selection.
I don't get the bubble that many Apple fans seem to live in, where Apple can short-change you with crippled hardware at premium prices (which they have done) and get away with it.Apple controls the supply and we live with it. Sure we'd like to be able to pick CPU options (ala PC manufacturers) but Apple hasn't give that to us yet.
Would you be happy, as a consumer, if Apple decided to give you a Merom based iMac rather than a Conroe iMac just because they couldn't be bothered designing a new MoBo for the new chip? I wouldn't, which is why I intend to buy a new iMac only if they're Conroe based.I would be happy with a Merom iMac. In fact I expect Merom to be in the iMac. They share the same socket. It's an easy update path for Apple.
Even the top-end Merom (2.33Ghz) will not be able to keep up with the standard Conroe (2.4Ghz) and costs nearly twice as much. Which would mean the only consumer Apple desktop would not be able to keep up with even bog standard Conroe PC's from DELL (or whoever) and still cost much more. It simply makes no sense for Apple or consumers.
For example, a 2.4Ghz Conroe will cost Apple $316 however a 2.33Ghz Merom will cost Apple over $600 or a 2.16Ghz Merom $423. Now why would Apple pay over $100 more for a 2.16Ghz Merom compared to a 2.4Ghz Conroe? Merom is slower and more expensive, it makes neither logical or financial sense for Apple to use them in the iMac if they have the option of Conroe with a new MoBo. End of.We'd all like Apple to be more like Dell in terms of price, model, and chip selection.
MacCoaster
Oct 12, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by nixd2001
It would be interesting to see the code generated for the loops - it won't change the answers but it might give some of us a bit more understanding on the perfomance differences.
javajedi's Java and Cocoa/Objective-C code has been available here (http://members.ij.net/javajedi) for a couple of days. My C# port is available for examination if you e-mail me.
It would be interesting to see the code generated for the loops - it won't change the answers but it might give some of us a bit more understanding on the perfomance differences.
javajedi's Java and Cocoa/Objective-C code has been available here (http://members.ij.net/javajedi) for a couple of days. My C# port is available for examination if you e-mail me.
eternlgladiator
Mar 11, 08:57 AM
+1
didnt know the word tw@t was used over the pond... lol amezzin
I thought it was appropriate for this line. It's not in my main repertoire but I thought it worked.
didnt know the word tw@t was used over the pond... lol amezzin
I thought it was appropriate for this line. It's not in my main repertoire but I thought it worked.
Multimedia
Jul 13, 11:18 AM
What makes you think that? Do you believe that it doesn't take any time or money to re-design the internals of the iMac? Apple has two choice basically:
a) replace the Core Duo in iMac and replace it with Merom
b) re-design the internals of the iMac, and replace the Core Duo with Conroe
And heat-output might come in to play here. Conroe might not be P4-hot, but it's a lot hotter than Merom is.Exactly. And that's why many of us think they will exercise choice b. Otherwise they would have to use the much more expensive Meroms just to top out at 2.33GHz which makes no sense. iMacs are due a do-over anyway. Why not a do-over for Conroe now so they can run above 2.33GHz?
I don't mean 3GHz now. I mean sometime next year with the new design they can do now in anticipation of additional heat then when 3GHz is no longer the top most expensive speed. Even liquid cooling is not out of the question in the next iMac design. Apple has developed a lot of experience with that on the G5 Power Macs. And the Quad's liquid cooling system is dead quiet.
Bumping iMacs to 2 and 2.16GHz Meroms hardly seems like much of a performance boost to me. But perhaps you're right. Face it. We're all in the zone of wild speculation and unsubstantiated prognostication. ;)
a) replace the Core Duo in iMac and replace it with Merom
b) re-design the internals of the iMac, and replace the Core Duo with Conroe
And heat-output might come in to play here. Conroe might not be P4-hot, but it's a lot hotter than Merom is.Exactly. And that's why many of us think they will exercise choice b. Otherwise they would have to use the much more expensive Meroms just to top out at 2.33GHz which makes no sense. iMacs are due a do-over anyway. Why not a do-over for Conroe now so they can run above 2.33GHz?
I don't mean 3GHz now. I mean sometime next year with the new design they can do now in anticipation of additional heat then when 3GHz is no longer the top most expensive speed. Even liquid cooling is not out of the question in the next iMac design. Apple has developed a lot of experience with that on the G5 Power Macs. And the Quad's liquid cooling system is dead quiet.
Bumping iMacs to 2 and 2.16GHz Meroms hardly seems like much of a performance boost to me. But perhaps you're right. Face it. We're all in the zone of wild speculation and unsubstantiated prognostication. ;)
Love
Apr 22, 10:02 PM
They think they don't need to back up their points with Reason or facts so it's a kind of intellectual laziness which compels most people.
Really? That actually sounds like a Christian thing to do, morelike. Just say "because God made it that way" to anything they don't understand.
Really? That actually sounds like a Christian thing to do, morelike. Just say "because God made it that way" to anything they don't understand.
Xibalba
Oct 7, 04:04 PM
Of course Android might surpass the iPhone. The iPhone is limited to 1 device whereas the Android is spanned over many more devices and will continue to branch out.
Derrick+rose+mvp+espn
derrick rose mvp wallpaper.
G Derrick Rose is NBA MVP
econgeek
Apr 12, 11:09 PM
No, your ignorance of Adobe's stance in the professional broadcast industry comes off as snotty.
It is impossible for me to display any ignorance of a topic of which I have not addressed. I challenge you to find a post from me where I use the phrase "professional broadcast industry".
If you cannot do it, then you are constructing a lie out of whole cloth in order to attack me, because, apparently, you cannot construct a counter argument to any of the points I have made.
I think your need to attack me proves my case beyond any need of myself to defend my point or myself.
It is impossible for me to display any ignorance of a topic of which I have not addressed. I challenge you to find a post from me where I use the phrase "professional broadcast industry".
If you cannot do it, then you are constructing a lie out of whole cloth in order to attack me, because, apparently, you cannot construct a counter argument to any of the points I have made.
I think your need to attack me proves my case beyond any need of myself to defend my point or myself.
myamid
Sep 12, 07:17 PM
Here's another pic from the event today, taken by the Gizmodo guys...
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/09/IMG_3701.JPG
http://www.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/09/IMG_3701-thumb.JPG
Looks like a squished Mini :p
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/09/IMG_3701.JPG
http://www.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/09/IMG_3701-thumb.JPG
Looks like a squished Mini :p
ericinboston
Apr 28, 09:31 AM
Next quarter you'll see very, very different numbers. Over the next 3-5 years you'll see the decline of the entire PC market and a shift over to tablets and pad devices as they become more capable and powerful.
Very true.
Compare what you did on a personal computer in 1995 vs. today. I would say web-based activity is a very very high percentage of what people use a personal computer...since even 2005. Online banking, email, uploading/sharing photos, Youtube, chat, skype, research, maps & directions, etc.
It doesn't make a difference if you use a Mac or Dell or a Linux box...as long as there is a browser on the system, you can do all your work.
Sure, there is the occasional thick client (iTunes, MS Office, Photoshop) but those are ALL available on the Mac and PC environments.
Now tablets come along. They failed so many times before because of all the new operating systems they had and thick client re-compiles they had to do. No more. 90% of the stuff consumers are doing is web...so just slap Firefox on the thing and you're golden. Then for the 10% of stuff that isn't web-based, have the OS be attractive to app writers....and those 3 example apps above are being ported to the tablets.
Tablets are definitely the wave of the future of personal computing...but I will state that the desktop will be around for quite some time for the folks (like me) who although do a lot of web stuff, have a lot of thick client apps and/or need (non-need) to use a desktop vs. a tablet.
Very true.
Compare what you did on a personal computer in 1995 vs. today. I would say web-based activity is a very very high percentage of what people use a personal computer...since even 2005. Online banking, email, uploading/sharing photos, Youtube, chat, skype, research, maps & directions, etc.
It doesn't make a difference if you use a Mac or Dell or a Linux box...as long as there is a browser on the system, you can do all your work.
Sure, there is the occasional thick client (iTunes, MS Office, Photoshop) but those are ALL available on the Mac and PC environments.
Now tablets come along. They failed so many times before because of all the new operating systems they had and thick client re-compiles they had to do. No more. 90% of the stuff consumers are doing is web...so just slap Firefox on the thing and you're golden. Then for the 10% of stuff that isn't web-based, have the OS be attractive to app writers....and those 3 example apps above are being ported to the tablets.
Tablets are definitely the wave of the future of personal computing...but I will state that the desktop will be around for quite some time for the folks (like me) who although do a lot of web stuff, have a lot of thick client apps and/or need (non-need) to use a desktop vs. a tablet.
tba03
Apr 13, 11:47 AM
Hoping we see some sort of massive overhaul of Logic soon. Would be awesome.
please apple, don't make that
you already messed logic enough as of L9, don't dumb it down further and make it a garage band pro
and could you please bring real waveforms display in your apps? logic has the crappiest stereo waveform ever, FCP had a nice one(tho slow) but the new one loks uber crappy, not at all pro IMOHO
please apple, don't make that
you already messed logic enough as of L9, don't dumb it down further and make it a garage band pro
and could you please bring real waveforms display in your apps? logic has the crappiest stereo waveform ever, FCP had a nice one(tho slow) but the new one loks uber crappy, not at all pro IMOHO
Rodimus Prime
Mar 14, 12:21 AM
The small ones, like satellites dishes. You can buy them at Jaycar.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?whichpage=3&pagesize=10&keywords=wind&form=KEYWORD
Pretty much like a weather vein or TV aerial. Provides a couple of hundred watts at 24V or 12V. I was thinking about one for if there is ever a blackout (ie a drunk hitting a power pole, it's happened) instead of needing a petrol generator.
Every home generating 500W of their own wind power with one of these little things on their roof in a city of Los Angeles with a million homes = 500,000,000 watts. As well as a solar panel at 500W too is up to a billion watts not required from any central power source.
idea time only. Wind produces the most power during the night (not during peak load times) and again I would not want the noise from the wind turbines all over hte place.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?whichpage=3&pagesize=10&keywords=wind&form=KEYWORD
Pretty much like a weather vein or TV aerial. Provides a couple of hundred watts at 24V or 12V. I was thinking about one for if there is ever a blackout (ie a drunk hitting a power pole, it's happened) instead of needing a petrol generator.
Every home generating 500W of their own wind power with one of these little things on their roof in a city of Los Angeles with a million homes = 500,000,000 watts. As well as a solar panel at 500W too is up to a billion watts not required from any central power source.
idea time only. Wind produces the most power during the night (not during peak load times) and again I would not want the noise from the wind turbines all over hte place.
FreeState
Apr 15, 01:40 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWYqsaJk_U8
Well worth the watch. Im so glad they did this.
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Well worth the watch. Im so glad they did this.
----------------------------------------------------------------
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GGJstudios
Apr 10, 12:54 PM
For switchers in particular I do think it is worthwhile to leave the defaults as they are and understand what the defaults are and why before they try to impose something else.
I agree with you, in general principle. When I switched to Mac, I decided to learn the "Mac way" of doing things, rather than trying to make Mac work like Windows. For those who may not have a large or well organized music library, using the defaults may be fine. However, I had spent years building my library, ripping CDs and vinyl records, editing tags. All file names were exactly as I needed them and I had them well organized, much better than iTunes organizes them. For me (and for those who have a very specific music file organization), leaving those boxes unchecked gives us all the advantages of using iTunes, plus the advantages of well-organized music files.
I agree with you, in general principle. When I switched to Mac, I decided to learn the "Mac way" of doing things, rather than trying to make Mac work like Windows. For those who may not have a large or well organized music library, using the defaults may be fine. However, I had spent years building my library, ripping CDs and vinyl records, editing tags. All file names were exactly as I needed them and I had them well organized, much better than iTunes organizes them. For me (and for those who have a very specific music file organization), leaving those boxes unchecked gives us all the advantages of using iTunes, plus the advantages of well-organized music files.
AidenShaw
Sep 21, 11:15 AM
...you have a Tivo - you have made the decision to keep your recorded TV media in its traditional place - the living room / den.
The iTV concept starts from the premis that this is an outdated concept.
You have some interesting points, but for some people there are other considerations....
The iTV concept starts from the premis that this is an outdated concept.
You have some interesting points, but for some people there are other considerations....